FATT Chat #2: Caleb Luna
Hi! I’m Bree (they/them), and I’m so stoked to welcome you to FATT Chat! FATT is an acronym for Fat Acceptance Tales & Techniques, which is the very intention for this series. It was inspired by my master’s thesis in which I conducted a 40-person study analyzing influences on fat people’s body image and the strategies they use for fat empowerment. Here, I am attempting to continue this work beyond academia in a format that is accessible to more people.
My hope is to create fat visibility with first-person fat liberation stories, as well as foster fat acceptance in others by sharing fat positive resources and strategies. In FATT Chats, you’ll find interviews with NAAFA members and non-members alike who will share their personal stories of fat acceptance and the real life techniques that have and continue to help them in their own lives. You’ll also find an easy-access list of all resources and techniques mentioned at the end of each interview, building upon each list with every interview to create a living grab bag of fat acceptance support.
With that, I’d like to let each interviewee speak for themselves, so please enjoy this FATT Chat featuring Caleb Luna!
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This interview was recorded on March 23, 2021 . Please enjoy the audio version below.
On the left, is a selfie of Caleb Luna. They are a light-skinned, superfat Latinx non-binary person with short, curly black hair, a gold piercing in their right nostril and gold hoop in their septum. They are wearing a light blue short-sleeved button-up with dark blue, pink, and red flower patterning on it, black leather suspenders, and have a gold lion medallion beneath their collar. On the right is Bree XVI, a fat, middle-aged non-binary person with short blue hair. Both are smiling.
Trigger Warning: Brief discussion of experience with weight bias in medical settings.
BREE: Yay! Welcome to FATT Chat! This is Bree and I’m super stoked to be joined here today by Caleb. Hi Caleb!
CALEB: Hi, thank you for having me!
BREE: Yeah, thanks for being here. Um, so just like the other ones, I always intend to ask people to introduce themselves if that’s okay. So, would you like to please introduce yourself?
CALEB: Yeah, I’m Caleb. I’m a writer, performer… I’m always like, which, like... I always have a hard time thinking, like, what is relevant here? I’m a writer, a performer, fat person. Yeah, right now what I do for money is, I’m getting a PhD in performance studies at UC Berkeley. I also teach there as part of that program, and that informs a lot of my public work. Also, a lot of my public work informs my scholarship. So yeah, those are some sort of symbiotic artistic forms that I engage.
Whew, this is going to be transcribed, right? (Bree laughs) I don’t know why— I looked at the questions and I thought about it and I was, like, in my head, and then here I’m like, I don’t know.
BREE: Believe me, I fully understand. I feel like any time I do public anything, I will script it fully, perfectly, like, bad assery in my head. And then I get there and I’m just like, hieeee! (laughs) So, you know what, however we show up is how we show up, and whatever we say is what needs to be heard.
CALEB: Thank you.
BREE: Yeah, absolutely. And also, I think, especially the first couple questions are very open-ended, and this can be as in-depth or not as you wanna get about whatever you wanna get. And so, we’ll start off with the biggest, vaguest question of them all. Please talk to us about your own fat acceptance story.
CALEB: Yeah. For there to be a fat acceptance story there has to also be, like, a fat un-acceptance story, right? There has to be something that compels us to accept our fatness against whatever. So, I guess I’ll start by saying I grew up in a fat [family]. I had fat parents, my sister was fat. Both of my sisters were fat when I was growing up, although one of them is no longer fat. And both of my parents were just chronic dieters. And of course, like, externalized their own fatphobia onto me. So, I grew up in a household where diet culture was very prevalent. I experienced a lot of fatphobia from my parents and siblings as well as, like, school mates, and, you know, just like the culture at large. And so, I remember I was in high school and my older brother has always been, like, sort of the voice of, like, reason or support in my family. He’s also queer. Although he’s not fat, but he has always been, like, supportive and loving to me. And he somehow introduced me to Margaret Cho. And so, I feel very grateful that like, my last year of high school, I wasn’t even out as queer, but around that time, my last year of high school, first year after graduation, I was exposed to Margaret Cho’s standup comedy specials, and it was the first time probably ever that I had heard somebody talk about being fat and accepting themsevles. Especially like, as a queer slutty person, you know? And that was super formative to me. I know she has this bit where she talks about, like, all these women’s magazines that are targeted towards women to tell them how to, like, position their bodies so they’re less fat during sex. And she was like, if you care about what I look like when you’re fucking me, then you shouldn’t be fucking me in the first place. And then she talks about, like, what would we gain if we just stopped hating ourselves? If we just like, took all the time and energy we spent hating ourselves and into dieting and weight loss efforts, and just stopped doing that. And like, what would that open up for us? You know? So, that was hugely transformational for me. To think that, like, you don’t have to... like, there's another way to relate to your body, you know? And so that was kind of like the first little nugget of, like, acceptance, right, that I was introduced to. And then looking back I’m like, I feel so lucky to have kind of been ushered in by this other fat, queer, person of color. I feel a lot of gratitude for that, and I feel like Margaret Cho now doesn’t have a lot of headspace, like, she’s not super present in my fat politics or in my, like, cultural politics really, she’s just kinda in the background. But in the early 2000s she was huge for me. And then, of course, I think through tumblr I began to learn about not just fat acceptance but fat politics, right? And began to learn about how fatness actually works and how dieting works and how it’s all a huge fucking scam. And once those dots were connected about, like, the capitalist role in shaping diet culture basically, I was like, “Oh, fuck this!” It was just very clear to me that, like, me hating myself is like, lining somebody else’s pockets. And like, I don’t wanna participate in that. I’m not gonna, like, allow another person to get wealthy off of, like, me minimizing myself. So I think those, between Margaret Cho and tumblr, really helped shape my fat acceptance story.
BREE: Um, this happens every time. My brain just goes in, like, 12 different directions and I have to decide which one I’m gonna go with. (laughs)
CALEB: Yeah.
BREE: I’ll go with what’s loudest. I, too, I found... my story starts with one particular person and then tumblr also. And my person was an adult performer, April Flores. And I’m just wondering, in the context of, like, slutty fat people, I’m wondering if you have any other experience around, like, sex-positive, fat-positive people and who else you might shout out.
CALEB: Yeah, there’s a burlesque performer, Lowa De Boom Boom. I saw her perform-- oh, I don’t actually don’t know Lowa’s pronouns. I saw them perform… 2016 I came to Oakland. Or no, maybe it was 2015, for NOLOSE, which is a fat queer organization. And they had a performance night. And I performed some really sad poetry, which is all of my poetry, but also like, related to… I think a lot of people connected to it. And then it was, like, so funny because everybody else after that, like, I went first, and then everyone else was, like, really incredible burlesque performance, so then I felt kind of like the outlier at the end of the night (laughs). But I was able to so many people performing, including Tigress who connected us. But Lowa specifically, because Lowa is a superfat person, you know, and they were just so sexy and so, like, I don't know. I was just like, this is, like, the first time I’ve really seen somebody that felt, like, comparable to my size be sexy and be sexually empowered, you know, in a way that really shifted things for me because I didn’t.. I think I still, honestly, have a difficult time accessing that. But I had always, like, because of the way that I internalized fatphobia from my family and from my parents and, like, always hearing things like, “nobody wants to see that,” or whatever, you know, those offhand comments that are so common but really can seed deeply in us. Seeing Lowa’s performance really, I think, shifted stuff and made me understand that, like, it wasn’t my fatness holding me back from being sexy, you know, or feeling sexy or performing that kind of sexiness. That there was again, like, another option or opportunity and that was everything for me.
Another person I think that… Beth Ditto. Who, like, her work is not being sexy, right, although she is sexy. But like, she’s a punk singer. And, like, the way that she also fused, like, punk music and attitude with a fat politic was also super, I think, formative for me. And the way that she would like, you know, I remember there’s this photo of her, it’s a really simple photo, it’s just, like, a neck up head shot and she’s just wearing, like, a V-neck shirt, but on the shirt is written “punk will never diet” and that was, like, also super influential to me in terms of, like, bridging, you know, fat acceptance and fat politics with a sort of punk counterculture politic as well.
Yeah, I think those are probably the other super deep early influences. The positive ones, anyway, that come to mind. There are, of course, like, tons of negative influences, but those are the people that I think really shifted the narrative for me.
BREE: What about, um, your own performance? So I know you’re getting your doctorate in that realm. I’m wondering what your fat politics looks like in conjunction with your performance work and scholarly work?
CALEB: That’s a great question. Um, yeah, it’s like, interesting that I ended up in this world because, um, I came to performance sort of accidentally. My friend Jules Pashall has always been an artist, like, has always identified as an artist, right? And I remember seeing them… We both were living in Austin. This was, like, 2013, 2014. And they moved to Austin to start an art collective, a Jewish art collective. And so, I remember seeing them perform a few different places, and then one year for their birthday they just kind of convened all these fat identified femmes that lived in Austin, and they were like, “I want to make art with you.” And at that time, like, I didn’t identify as an artist. I had this narrative that, like, I wasn’t creative, I wasn’t, um… yeah, that that wasn’t my arena. Which really got challenged through this whole process and we ultimately wrote a play collectively called Fat: The Play. And when we were, like, first meeting, I was like, “I will not be on stage. Like, I am a writer and I’m comfortable writing, I will write a script or whatever, but, like, I can’t, like, I’m not gonna be on stage.” And I think underlying that, too, was an internalized understanding I had that, like, fat people aren’t meant to be on stage, fat people aren’t meant to be seen, that we aren’t wanted to be seen, right? And Fat: The Play, we entered it in a one-act play festival. And it ended up winning. Like, the way that the festival worked is that at the end of the night the audience picked their favorites. Those favorites performed at the end of the week. And then the favorites from each week performed at the end of the month. And we went all the way through to the end of the month. And we were, I think we were all like, “Oh, wow!” Like, none of us expected the reception that we had, that we received. That people were actually interested and connected with us. And that, I was like, “Oh!” Like, there is a market for fat performance. Fat people do want to see fat performance. I had this idea that, like, and I was like, minimizing myself and keeping myself small by not putting myself on stage. Um, and so now, a lot of my performance work is burlesque, it is sexy, it is being really confrontational and putting my sexuality out there. I think also because of my own experience, you know, I don’t identify as a gay man anymore, but I did grow up, you know, thinking I was… Like, identifying as gay and thinking as a man, um, and in gay male community. And in gay male community, even in my friendships with gay men, like, I was so de-sexualized. I was so, like, not seen as sexual at all. So, it became really important for me to be like, “Hey, fuckers! Like, I am sexy! I have a sexuality!” Like, you might not recognize it or it might not register to you because of this, like, deeply fatphobic culture that we’re all in. Where like, fat people are seen as butt of jokes, we’re seen as the best friends, we’re seen as the sidekick. We’re never seen as the objects of desire, as the romantic interest or whatever. And so challenging that narrative to an audience has been really important for my own performance work. As well where I love to simulate or have sex in front of an audience just to be like, hey, you’ve probably never seen this unless you really specifically or intentionally sought it out—and most people haven’t. Or, I don’t know if that’s true. I think there is, like... fat porn has a huge market, but most people are not willing to be open about it in my experience. So, yeah, there’s a huge connection between, like, what I grew up experiencing as the cultural shaming and silencing and invisibilizing of fatness and fat bodies, and my own performance work, for sure. Which also, like, I do different... Like, I also am a poet and so I do poetry and my poetry is very sexual but, like, my performance of my poetry is not necessarily sexual if that makes sense. So there’s also different outlets for that.
BREE: I wanna ask you something that I actually asked Tigress because we ended up speaking about dance in her interview. And, um, I’m really, like… parts of your story, especially your creative storyline are resonating so loudly with me. And, um, I, too, was a more behind-the-scenes person and preferred that. And I recently have been getting into dance and it is very hard. And so, I realized while I was talking to Tigress that, like, a lot of my shit with dance was still that, like, internalized fatphobia specifically around jiggling and, like, what the body looks like when it’s moving, and getting comfortable with what that feels and looks like. And so, I’m wondering if you have any feedback or suggestions for anyone who—it could be dance, I guess it could be any kind of movement, around embracing that and, you know, getting down with the jiggle.
CALEB: Yeah, I’m sorry, what’s the... are you asking for, like, a recommendation for somebody to talk to about that?
BREE: Um, more like your personal feedback to somebody who maybe is apprehensive about dancing because of the way their body moves or whatever, or maybe suggestions on how to move through that.
CALEB: Yeah, um, I think there’s a couple of things. First, I think we can sometimes forget that this stigma is so cultural. It’s so culturally specific. And I didn’t fully understand that until I came to grad school and I was very aggressive about fat politics and my fat body, you know. And like, talking about fat stigma and stuff. And meeting so many people, both through my program through the university and also just, like, in the world, who, um… Yeah, like, when I moved here I slept with so many people and, like, none of them are from the US. And then I would, like, go to my, like, academic friends who grew up around the world and they’d be like, “What are you talking about? Like, if you go back to my country or, like, if you leave the US, your body is gonna be received so differently.” Um, and I think through my study I think I realized, too, the connection between the development of white supremacy, the development, the production of thinness as a bodily ideal, as part of white supremacy, right? And also developed through the colonization process. So, all of these things are very intertwined, right? So, my response to that would be, like, A) This is cultural. We can think about… I mean, I’m thinking specifically about, like, belly dance and these other types of dance where that jiggle is valued and is necessary and part. And I think about hula and other Pacific Islander practices, right, where the fatness of the body is kind of, like, needed in order to move the way the dance requires. And I don’t know if that’s gonna help everybody. For me, like, I think I can be a bit intellectual. And so for me, like, having a larger theoretical, like, motivation or impact is really motivating for me. I don’t know if that’s true for everybody. But just remembering that, like, when we hear that the jiggle of the body is ugly or unwanted or not how the body is supposed to move or meant to move or whatever. Just, like, that’s super specific to white supremacy, quite honestly. And you can be like, do I wanna be a white supremacist or not? (Both laugh) I would hope that most people who are reading this conversation would be like, “Actually no, I don’t.” And not holding my body to these standards of whiteness that were very intentionally created to, not just pathologize Black and Indigenous people around the world, but to steal their land. To argue that they were inferior, that they were less human, that they were closer to non-human animals, and therefore were not capable of making autonomous decisions about their lives and livelihood. It truly is, like, that connection is truly historically that simple, right. And so now we’re 500 years into the project and we can start with our own bodies, you know, and the ways that we relate to them and think about them, and whose bodies and whose standards we judge them against. Because it is all about racial capitalism and white supremacy, it truly is. And I hope that folx, with those connections, can learn to divest a bit easier.
BREE: I just keep coming up with more other questions, and I realize I have my whole, like, list that I should probably get to. But thank you for that, I think that the… I think it's actually really great to have the, I guess, quote-unquote more, like, intellectual reminder because, um, I can get very focused on the physical, like, I’m talking about my body and the physical stuff, but it’s not just physical. Everything is everything, right?
CALEB: Yeah, like, if we didn’t have… Like, it’s the physical and material stuff, but if we didn’t have these messages, these discourses, these voices telling us how to feel about them, like, they would truly just be bodies. Like, before somebody comes in and tells you that your body’s wrong, you never have that idea because it’s your body and it’s your normal. And that’s, like, what is normal and natural too, you know? Like, bodily diversity is natural.
I remember, I saw... I’m also disabled and so I think about, like, disability politics and fat politics are kind of intertwined for me. And I think that there’s a larger argument for them to be more intertwined collectively. But, I digress. I was walking on campus once and I saw this squirrel that didn’t have a tail, and I was just like, “Oh, yeah, like, we’re not all meant to be the same. Like, we are meant to have… Like, there are some squirrels that are bigger than others and smaller than others and, like, have different coloring, you know. And there is, like, some sort of evolutionary motivation for, like, every detail of a squirrel. But that doesn’t mean that every squirrel is going to be produced that way, you know. There are going to be these variations. And that’s because, like, we’re not all meant to fuckin’ look the same. And that’s, like, a really simple, like, or it feels minor, but I think those reminders are everywhere, you know? Like, I’m holding my nine pound dog right now, you know, and then there are dogs that are, like, 150 pounds and I love those dogs too, you know. And they also offer different things. I can’t, like, I don’t know what to do with a big dog. I love a big dog, but I just… In my mind, I just put smaller dogs on top of them and have them ride around (laughs). You know, there's not, like, a smaller dog… I mean, there’s probably a smaller dog that you could put on top of Honey, but it's not gonna be as comically visual, you know. I hope this is making sense, we all have our characteristics (both laugh).
BREE: This is the best analogy for, like, diversity ever. (Caleb laughs) Just put little dogs on big dogs and we’re all good. (Both laugh)
CALEB: Yeah, we all have our place!
BREE: Yeah, no, I hear you. I love that.
All right, so, I know you’ve touched on some specific people and organizations already, but here is the question about, um, just, what are some other specific resources or strategies that you’ve used either in the past or currently to empower yourself in your body?
CALEB: Um, I think I’ve talked a little bit about just, like, learning the history of why bodies are thought of the way they are right now. Learning the history of diet culture, the history of fatphobia, the history of colonization, the history of capitalism, right? And learning how all of these things really coalesce into, like, do I like how my body looks? You know. I think something I haven’t, like, other things I haven’t necessarily touched on is like, learning to divest, like, there are ways of taking… This is really hard. It’s, like, hard to… Like, I guess… This is the thing. Like, divesting the moralizing around taking care of your body from, in terms of health and thinness and wellness, from what’s actually good for your body, what does your body like. Like, I like movement. I actually, in this way that, like, I have a really hard time remembering because it was always framed as, like, a weight loss effort, as an effort to change my body to look a certain way, as a punishment, right? If I ship all of that away and just be like, actually, if I get my heart rate up for 20 minutes, I feel better, my body feels better, you know. Like, thinking about what things have been packaged to me as dieting, diet culture, fatphobia. And a lot of it is. And I think so much of it, for me, because it’s been so married to weight loss and diet culture, it also, like, hasn’t helped me take care of my body in ways that I want to, if that makes sense. Maybe other fat people have already come to this realization or dealt with this or whatever, but just learning like, oh, paying attention to your body and being like, oh, it feels good when I do this and it doesn’t feel good when I do that, and not about it being like, what does the scale say, how do these pants fit, like, what jiggles or what doesn’t jiggle, you know, just like, really thinking about what are your values, how do you want to live in your body and how do you want to engage with your body? Um, and it’s really hard to cut through all the bullshit, but if you can really connect deeply with your own goals and values, I think that helps. I feel like I went on a tangent and I’m not sure if I answered the question.
BREE: Yeah, it does. I’m gonna ask a follow up though.
CALEB: Yeah!
BREE: Of the more, like, learning the history of all of this, do you have any specific people or books or websites that you would direct people to go towards?
CALEB: Yeah. I think Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fatphobia by Sabrina Strings just, like, really puts it altogether. I think another book that is about the histories of fatphobia in misogynoir, there’s a book called The Embodiment of Disobedience by Andrea Shaw Nevins. Um, Fat Shame by Amy Farrell also touches on this. I think those are the ones that I would—Oh, Fat Politics by J. Eric Oliver also. I have some of them right here which is why I’m looking up. (both laugh) It’s, like, my ADHD brain hack. Um, but those are probably the books, some of them are academic texts that I think have helped me. There’s also, you know, The Fat Studies Reader, there’s Fat!So? By Marilyn Wann. Yeah, in terms of the… I think Hunger by Roxane Gay actually really helped me. I know it’s, like, controversial, or like, some people think it’s controversial, but I think it was a really important story to tell. Yeah.
BREE: How about more on, like, the media tip, in terms of, like, visibility. Are there any entertainers or artists or, um, I don’t know, what kind of fat media are you consuming?
CALEB: Yeah. Um, I fucking love Nicole Byer.
BREE: Yes!!
CALEB: She’s amazing in every single way. Dorian Wood is an incredible musician, performance artist. Mark Aguhar was incredibly influential to me, rest in power. Um, of course there’s Sonya Rene Taylor. Who else, Sonalee Rashatwar, the fat sex therapist. I love Anshuman Iddamsetty, boar.lorde on Instagram and Twitter makes incredible, like, fat erotic art. Um, James Unsworth also on Instagram, he’s another fat artist. God, I feel like I’d have to, like, pull up my Instagram. Like, you know, going back to tumblr. I felt like there were, like, three or four people, I think when I joined tumblr, who were really being vocal about fatness. And most of them are white women, you know. And now I think that the field has just really expanded and diversified. The field being, like, people who are making art and content about fatness. And it’s become really beautifully intersectional in a lot of necessary ways. Crutches and Spice also is a good person that I, whose analysis that I love and follow on Instagram. Yeah. Oh, yeah, there’s this person on TikTok who is… Okay, I’m not gonna pull up their TikTok, but, like, TikTok is I think another medium that I’m… Like, I have one but I don’t make very good ones. I mostly just, like, follow other people, and I’m just like, the fat TikTokers are incredible. They’re so funny, they’re so smart, so sexy. I don’t.. I can’t recall any of them off the top of my head, but I think if you just go to TikTok and type in “#FatTikTok”, I think that’ll lead you to a lot of good places.
BREE: It’s taken me a week to make my first TikTok video and I’ve yet to publish it, so I hear you. (laughs)
CALEB: Yeah, it’s such a… it’s such a… Like, I love that TikTok is making video editing and making accessible. But it’s still not easy. Like, it’s not intuitive for me. It’s so hard. And I just don’t have the patience or energy to be super elaborate.
BREE: Yeah, I’m finding the same, um, I’m feeling the same about it.
Okay. Before I get to the last question, there’s a sort of pre-question. The last question is a question that Tigress, our first person who was interviewed, asked for the next person. So, before we get to that, I’m gonna ask you what would you like to ask the next person who gets interviewed in FATT Chat?
CALEB: I should’ve written this down because I thought a lot about it. Oh, yeah! How do you… When you experience fatphobia or fat stigma… because I think we often experience it, I think it would be really hard for us to identify it, to recognize it, to name it, right. And I’m curious how people, when they do experience it, like, how do you cope? How do you take care? What are your sort of healing rituals whenever you’re like, “Wow, that just happened and that’s, like, really fucked up.”
BREE: I love that question. And I love it so much that I’m going to ask you if you’d be open to answering it for yourself too.
CALEB: Oh, shit. (Bree laughs) Um… I think I’ve learned to take things less personally. I’m a leo, also, so it’s like, really hard for me to remember that people have things going on in their lives that are about so much more than me. Right? Or like… Um… I think that’s so important to just remember that people are dealing with their own shit, like, their own ideas of fatness and its limitations or its capacities or whatever. And it has nothing to do with you, and it’s also, like, I guess this goes back to one of the strategies, which is just, like, really decoupling the blame of what my body experiences. Like, it’s not my body’s fault that people are fatphobic, right? And really learning that, like, yeah, it’s just not… We have to deal with it but it’s not my fault. That’s really helpful for me. Then yeah, probably just, like, eating a really good meal and just taking care of myself that way is useful for me. Especially because I think that honestly where a lot of fatphobia comes from. Is that people don’t let themselves enjoy the foods that they want. And this also isn’t true of every fat person, but they imagine that fat people are just, like, eating anything we want all the time without thinking about it. And I think there’s a lot of people that are really angry that they don’t allow themselves to do that and they take it out on fat people. And that is not our fault that we can, if we want, to allow ourselves to indulge. It’s not our fault that other people don’t allow themselves to do that and then they’re angry at us. It’s like, girl, you really just want a cookie. Like, if you just eat a fucking cookie that would solve so much right now for both of us. (Bree laughs) So that’s what I would say.
BREE: I’m gonna think about that every time I eat cookies now, so thank you. (laughs)
CALEB: What kind of cookies do you like?
BREE: What kind of cookies don’t I like?
CALEB: Better question, honestly.
BREE: I don’t usually like things with coconut.
CALEB: That’s what I was gonna say! (Both laugh)
BREE: Hello! Anti-coconut club! (Both laugh)
I can, like, barely stand coconut flavor. And honestly, it was more so just, like, back in the day, rum, coconut rum was the only coconut flavor. But I don’t, um, I don’t even think I could do the fake flavor anymore. I actually have a lot of food sensitivities and I finally figured out how to make soft chocolate chip cookies that doesn’t make my body angry and are actually. Like, finding that recipe for actually soft cookies that don’t have all the things my body doesn’t like, oh my god, so grateful to finally have found that.
What about you? What’s your cookies?
CALEB: I mean, I just love a well done chocolate chip. Like, you really can’t beat that. I also love a peanut butter cookie.
BREE: Yes!
CALEB: Um… I love a snickerdoodle. I love a sugar cookie. I love a cookie with some sprinkles on it. I like Oreos. Really, the list is endless. It’s really open until… I don’t really like lemon flavored cookies or coconut. But I think barring that, I’m, like, pretty…. Although, weirdly, I don’t really love Girl Scout Cookies either. I don’t know what it is. I think they have a fudge type one maybe that I like. But everything else I’m just kind of like, mmm.
Breaking fat stereotypes here on FATT Chat! (Bree laughs)
BREE: Yeah, now I’m just thinking I’m, like, I’m pretty sure I’m down for any pastry ever. Um, I’m on the same boat—well, I don’t like, not like lemon, but I have to want it. Like, I have to, like, already be there before it’s there, you know.
CALEB: Yeah. Like, seek it out intentionally, not just, like, stumble across it.
BREE: Like, every one in a while, like, a lemon poppyseed little, like, bundt cake. My mouth just watered, I might be hungry. (Both laugh)
All right, so here’s the question that Tigress asked.
CALEB: Yeah.
BREE: What is your advice for dealing with disappointment when somebody that you looked up to as body positive or fat positive begins to engage in diet culture in a way that’s disappointing? How do you manage that disappointment?
CALEB: Yeah, um, this is a really good question. And I think for me, there’s a couple of different… I guess I’m like… Maybe my answers aren’t super different, but there’s a couple of different levels, right. There’s, like, a fat celebrity or something. Again, Roxane Gay had weight loss surgery. She’s somebody that I love and look up to and think of as a role model in many, many ways. And when that happened I had to just be like, okay, like, I don’t know what it’s like to live in Roxane Gay’s body, you know, especially, like, thinking about our differences. Like, she’s really tall, I’m short. She’s a Black woman, I am neither Black nor a woman. You know, she’s also fatter than me. Like, we have a lot of shared experiences and a lot through, like, fatness, but also a lot don’t. With that figure in particular, I’m just like, okay, like, you’re dealing with stuff that I don’t know because you’re a celebrity and, like, you’re not my intimate friend and we’re not sharing details, you know. And just like, have I think compassion and generosity with that and understand that, like, that’s where our paths diverge, you know. And I’ve seen other people, other celebrities who have undergone weight loss surgery and claimed it for health reasons. And I have questions, like, that can’t be answered because they’re not my friends, they’re celebrities, and so I’m just like, okay, you did what you felt was the best for you with the information that you had and now maybe our relationship is gonna change and I’m... You know, I’m not gonna say who it was, but there’s a content creator who recently, again, had weight loss surgery and I just don't find them funny anymore. And I’m like, okay, so I guess, like, now I just don’t engage with your content. And maybe people experience that as cancel culture or whatever but, like, I’m not cancelling them. I’m not saying, like, that this person is fucked up and violent and shouldn’t have a platform. It’s just like, okay, you’re no longer for me. And I think that that’s true also with close people who are intimate and, you know, like, you are making decisions that… or just, like, I have to remind myself that you’re making decisions based on what you feel is best for you with the information you have. I think with a friend, a close friend, I think there’s more opportunity for me to be like, what information do you have? Are you open to talking about it or not? And then I think it’s also a matter of renegotiating boundaries and being like, okay well then that means we... I can’t be a support like that… Again, like, that can’t be part of our relationship. I can’t fucking drive you to your Weight Watchers meeting or whatever, you know. Like, I don’t want to eat with you because I don't want to deal with looking at you writing down shit. We don’t talk about food anymore, you don’t comment on my food, you know. Just like, setting those boundaries, which, again, is difficult. I think in an intimate relationship for me, it’s difficult to A, like, learn where a boundary needs to be set and what that boundary is and then articulating it. Or like, have historically been difficult things for me although they’re getting easier. So I’m not saying it’s easy, but that’s like, how I would negotiate stuff and also just be like, okay, you’re dealing with something I don’t understand and I can’t sympathize with. And if you’re, like, if you’re a friend and you’re trying to address something, like, maybe we can talk about ways to address this concern without couching it in weight loss rhetoric and diet culture rhetoric. You know, like, any…. I am certain that any health condition that weight loss is prescribed for, there are alternatives. Like, weight loss is never a fucking solution to anything. Like, even if, like, you lose weight by changing a behavior. Like, it wasn’t the weight loss that improved the condition, it was the behavior change. Right? So, I think also, like, maybe trying to have a conversation and figure out what is the actual.... For example, I have high blood pressure and my fucking… I like, fought my nurse practitioner so hard because she kept trying to prescribe weight loss. And I had to be like, look, that is actually not healthy. Also, I’m sorry, I just, like, pivoted to this, maybe we should put a trigger warning in the transcription a little bit earlier. But, um, you know, that was an intimate relationship that I had with my medical practitioner and I had to be, like, actually weight loss is not healthy for me. Thinking about my body in terms of needing to lose weight is bad for me. And so how can we manage this condition without these metrics? Like, what else can I do that is not about weight loss that maybe is about changing what I eat but isn’t about dieting, you know? It’s just like, really, um, unpacking those minute details that like, I can’t do with Roxane Gay because she doesn’t fucking know who I am, you know, but I can do with my friends or my doctor or whatever, depending on different circumstances. Yeah, I think that would be my answer.
BREE: Thank you, that was a great answer. All your answers were great, who am I kidding? Um, I can’t believe it's almost been an hour already because I truly could’ve picked your brain about ten thousand things. Um, but here were are at the end, so, before we stop recording do you wanna let the people know what you’re up to or where to find you or whatever you want us to know?
CALEB: Sure, you can find me on Instagram @chairbreaker. I have a website, caleb.luna.com. I’m sorry, caleb-luna.com. Also, two anthologies that I’m being published in are coming out this year that I’m very excited about. Um, the first is called Fat & Queer which I think would be really relevant to the audience of this. The second one is called Queer Nightlife and I have an essay in there about what it means to show up in queer nightlife spaces as a fat person, as a fat femme specifically. I’m really proud of both of these essays and I hope that other people find value in them or reflection or whatever. If you want to check those out.
BREE: Yay! That’s so exciting! Congratulations.
CALEB: Thank you!
BREE: I actually, Fat & Queer just popped up in my algorithm recently, so now I’m, like, even more excited that I, like, know someone now who’s part of it.
CALEB: Yeah! It’s reaching who it needs to reach.
BREE: Yeah, exactly. All right, so, I will say fake bye right now so we can stop recording. Thanks for listening, bye!!
CALEB: Thank you! Bye!
* * *
The FATT List
All items are listed in alphabetical order.
Ideas and strategies
Advocate for yourself when medical professionals try to prescribe weight loss
Caleb shares some things you could say like, “Weight loss is not healthy for me. Thinking about my body in terms of needing to lose weight is bad for me. And so how can we manage this condition without these metrics? Like, what else can I do that is not about weight loss that maybe is about changing what I eat but isn’t about dieting?”
Learn the white supremacist history of fatphobia and diet culture
Literature referenced in this interview on this topic are marked with an asterisk
Renegotiate boundaries when others in your life engage in diet culture
Caleb explains being clear and direct with those close to you by setting boundaries around diet and food conversation, and eating if necessary.
Organizations
NoLose (fat queer organization; nolose.org)
People
Anshuman Iddamsetty (artist, writer, erotic performer; boarlord.desi, @boar.lord)
April Flores (adult performer; @theeaprilflores)
Beth Ditto (singer of the band Gossip; @bethditto)
Dorian Wood (musician, performance artist; dorianwood.com, @dorianwoodmusic)
Imani Barbarin (writer, speaker, model; crutchesandspice.com, @crutches_and_spice
James Unsworth (artist; jamesunsworth.com, @james.unsworth)
Jules Pashall (artist; @they_rly_let_themselves_go)
Lowa De Boom Boom (burlesque performer; @deboomboom)
Margaret Cho (comedian; margaretcho.com, @margaret_cho)
Mark Aguhar (queer artist; markaguhar.tumblr.com)
Nicole Byer (comedian and actor; nicolebyerwastaken.com, @nicolebyer)
Sonalee Rashatwar (fat sex therapist; sonaleer.com, @thefatsextherapist)
Sonya Renee Taylor (poet, activist, and author; sonyareneetaylor.com, @sonyareneetaylor)
Media
The Embodiment of Disobedience: Fat Black Women's Unruly Political Bodies by Andrea Shaw Nevins *
No website or public social media, but the book is available through many retailers. Here are the Google results.
Fat Politics by J. Eric Oliver * (jericoliver.com/books.html)
Fat & Queer edited by Bruce Owens Grimm, Miguel M. Morales, and Tiff Joshua TJ Ferentini (anthology; fatandqueer.com, @fatandqueerbook)
Includes an essay by Caleb!
Fat Shame: Stigma and the Fat Body in American Culture by Amy Farrell*
No website or social media, but the book is available through many retailers. Here are the Google results.
The Fat Studies Reader edited by Esther Rothblum and Sondra Solovay, foreword by Marilyn Wann *
No website or social media, but the book is available through many retailers. Here are the Google results.
Fat!So? by Marilyn Wann (fatso.com)
#FatTikTok (just search that on TikTok!)
Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fatphobia by Sabrina Strings * (sabrinastrings.com/books, @SaStrings)
Hunger by Roxane Gay (roxanegay.com/books/hunger; @roxanegay74)
Trigger warning: discussions of weight loss and weight bias
Queer Nightlife edited by Kemi Adeyemi, Kareem Khubchandani, and Ramón H. Rivera-Servera (anthology)
No website or social media, but the book is available through many retailers. Here are the Google results.
Includes an essay by Caleb!
Image description: Bree, a fat, White, middle aged, non-binary person with blue hair that’s styled in bangs and two “space buns". They are standing at a microphone, smiling, with their hands on their hips and a ukulele strapped to their chest.
Bree XVI (they/them) is a NAAFA member who likes to help people in the ways they know how. They provide collaborative emotional and spiritual support and resources through their venture Bree is Helpful AF. A lifelong writer, they also enjoy playing music, making art, and petting every cat that will let them. Born and raised in Philadelphia (Lenape land), they now reside in Los Angeles (Gabrielino-Tongva land) with their partner and succulent garden.
OPINION DISCLAIMER: Any views or opinions stated in the NAAFA Community Voices Blog are personal and belong solely to the blog author. They do not represent the views or opinions of NAAFA or the people, institutions or organizations that the owner may or may not be associated with in professional or personal capacity, unless explicitly stated. Any views or opinions are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, or individual.