Hi! I’m Bree (they/them), and I’m so stoked to welcome you to the first of many FATT Chats! FATT is an acronym for Fat Acceptance Tales & Techniques, which is the very intention for this series. It was inspired by my master’s thesis in which I conducted a 40-person study analyzing influences on fat people’s body image and the strategies they use for fat empowerment. Here, I am attempting to continue this work beyond academia in a format that is accessible to more people.

My hope is to create fat visibility with first-person fat liberation stories, as well as foster fat acceptance in others by sharing fat positive resources and strategies. In FATT Chats, you’ll find interviews with NAAFA members and non-members alike who will share their personal stories of fat acceptance and the real life techniques that have and continue to help them in their own lives. You’ll also find an easy-access list of all resources and techniques mentioned at the end of each interview, building upon each list with every interview to create a living grab bag of fat acceptance support.

With that, I’d like to let each interviewee speak for themselves, so please enjoy the very first FATT Chat featuring NAAFA Board Chair, Tigress Osborn! 

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This interview was recorded on December 22, 2020. Please enjoy the audio version below.

BREE: The first thing is just, I actually pulled this from Cameron Esposito’s podcast, Queery. She always asks people to introduce themselves. So, I’ll ask you to just introduce yourself however you want. Just to give people the space to use the words they identify with and all that jazz.

TIGRESS: Sure, that sounds great. So, my name is Tigress Osborn. Most people don't care about my last name at all. (laughs) I always describe myself, and especially lately, I describe myself as a fat, Black, middle-aged woman. And then I usually also add, especially if it’s something where people can’t see me, that I am a light brown skinned Black person—both so they can envision me and so that I’m acknowledging the skin color privilege that comes with that. And I know that a lot of people don’t like the word fat, but I do. I know you already know that I am the soon-to-be Chair of the world’s oldest fat rights organization, that has used the word fat proudly for 51 years. 

I live in Arizona but my activism, especially, and a lot of my worldview was shaped by 21 years living in the Bay Area, in Richmond and Oakland, California. And the Bay has, like, super thriving fat community compared to lots of other places in the world. And so I was really shaped by the sort of social justice oriented vibe of the Bay in general, but then especially by the fat community, where there were so many people who played fundamental roles in fat visibility projects that I saw when I was new to thinking about fat politics. Just, you know, people who have a real intersectional lens around fat and have at least more of an intersectional lense around fat than people often do. And a real fat arts community. Some people know me as a dancer. I think of myself more as a costume enthusiast who is willing to dance in front of people. (laughs)

And also, I guess the other thing I would say about who I am—in my personal life, I’m a very proud auntie. I’m a former high school teacher. I spent a lot of years working with youth and I don’t do that professionally anymore, but I really have a passion for young people in general and I especially have a passion for my niblings. I have a teenage niece, a five-year-old niece, and a 12-year-old nephew. 

BREE: I love being reminded of the word “niblings.” (laughs) 

TIGRESS: I really love using that word! 

BREE: I know you've touched a bit already on your work specifically around fat activism, but the first “question-question”, which I’m sure encompasses much more than that so it might be a longer story (both laugh), but it is—tell us your fat acceptance story, wherever you want it to start and end. 

TIGRESS: So, I thought of myself as fat from the time I was, I guess, I think of it as teenager but technically it was probably more like being a pre-teen, like junior high-ish. Well, my very first memory of feeling like my body was wrong because it was bigger than other people’s... I didn’t feel like I looked that different than my elementary school classmates, but there was some kind of thing where we all had to be weighed or say our weights or something, and I was like, twenty or thirty pounds bigger than the other girls, and it was noteworthy to me, that, like, “what?” I knew I had already received those messages. 

And I had fat aunts on both sides of my family and had grown up with a lot of dialogue from them and about them, about what it meant to be fat. On the Black side of my family, there was anxiety about being fat, but there was also like, “But I’m fucking fine even though I’m fat, so look at me in this dress ‘cause I’m fine.” I had more of that from the aunts on that side of the family and my, you know, my fat aunt that I was closest too—I mean, there are other extended family members that are fat on the White side of my family, but my fat aunt that I was closest to on the White side of my family carried and articulated much more shame around being fat. And I also witnessed her being harassed in public for being fat, in ways that I didn’t witness that with people on the other side of my family. So, my young perceptions of what it meant to be fat were very racially colored because I saw that sort of divide in my own life. But I was mostly acculturated, like, I lived in a Black neighborhood, but I was, you know, I was bussed to an honors program at a predominantly White school. And then I went to a predominantly White high school, and then I went to a White college in a super, super White town. So, even though I had this sort of, you know, there’s Black community dialogue about how Black folks are way more accepting of body size. And there’s some truth to that and then there’s also some mythology around that that’s not accurate or that also doesn’t change the way we have to still live in the rest of the world. So, I definitely internalized all the mainstream messages about that. 

I was a teenager when Oprah Winfrey wheeled her little red wagon of fat out on the stage. Like, she did a medically supervised fast and lost all this weight. She wheeled out this wagon of fat to represent how much weight she had lost. And like, I was a teenager when that happened and I remember my teenage peers being like, “Oh my god, it’s amazing, look how skinny Oprah is!” And whatever. I remember as a teenager having some, what I would now identify as sort of, like, fledgling fat activist kind of moments. Like, I remember trying to write an editorial piece. I read all the teenage magazines. I had subscriptions to, like, four teenage magazines, because no one around me had that lense of, like, “Hmm, these might be giving her some negative body image messages,” or any of that stuff. It was just, “Oh, she likes to read, give her some more magazines.” And so I got all these messages from those magazines about what a girl was supposed to look like and be like. But I remember sitting down to write—I don’t have this, but I remember sitting down to write something about The Fat Boys and how important they were in, now I would say fat visibility. I'm sure I wasn’t using that language, but just like, what it meant to me to have fat role models in the media. (laughs) And I’m sure that The Fat Boys aren’t the best role models—I don’t know if you know who The Fat Boys are, they’re this rap group, (Bree nods), yeah. So I remember having sort of those kind of fledgling thoughts. 

You know, and as a teenager, I actually wasn’t—if you look at pictures of me as a teenager, you probably will not see a fat girl. But compared to my classmates and with so much focus on weight and people talking about weight and knowing my weight was like, you know, fifty pounds bigger than other girls. Even though from the naked eye most people would not look at pictures of me at that time and think that I was fat. I was really developing an identity as the fat girl. And I remember in ninth grade, my biology teacher did some exercise where we all had to say our weight out loud. And I was tormented by it because I didn’t want to say my real weight out loud, but I knew if I said something that was too far from my real weight it would just be really obvious that I was lying. So I made up a weight that I thought could kind of, like, skate those grey areas. But then everybody else also lied because they didn’t want to say their real weights either. So, I still was the second largest person in the class after the linebacker (laughs) and, you know, that was teenage life, right? 

So then I go off to college and I’m still thinking about dieting and it’s like, the age of Richard Simmons’ Deal-A-Meal and Susan Powter “Stop the Insanity” infomercials about weight loss plans and all that stuff. And I went to a diversity workshop on my school’s annual diversity day that was hosted by Carrie Hemenway who was one of the most active members of the Boston chapter of NAAFA. And it was my first exposure—I had seen people from NAAFA or other people who I identified as like, size acceptance people or whatever, on Oprah and on The Donahue Show, like these daytime talk shows. I had seen those people, but I hadn’t in my real life interacted with somebody who had a politic around fat. And that was my first exposure to that. 

It was years—like, I started sort of, you know, developing that and reading stuff and Marilyn Wann’s book came out a few years after that, Fat! So? And that title just called to me. When I moved to the Bay there were some public protests around. There was a really prominent public protest around a gym that had an ad campaign about how when aliens came they were gonna eat all the fat people first. And the fat people, like, took to the streets and actually protested in front of the gym and stuff. So I had all that stuff, like, swirling around me. And in the mid-90s, late-90s, I tried to start a blog. I didn’t really know how to blog, but I tried to start a blog. I started a little website called Big Girl Pride. I had like, seven followers or something like that, but I designed my own artwork in MS Paint. I was trying to find my way as somebody who could just live in the body I was in without being obsessed with losing weight. I never successfully did any kind of diet program. 

One of the things that also politicized me about fat stuff is that I lost a tremendous amount of weight by going through a severe depression. And I wasn’t eating and I dropped a bunch of weight really fast and I was walking around crying almost 24 hours a day because I was barely sleeping, so I was up 24 hours a day but I was also just walking around crying, looking like a zombie, literally black circles under my eyes, and people were saying, “Girl, you look so good, how did you do it?” You know? I was existing, I was eating a bagel and a carton of yogurt a day. So, 500 calories, maybe. People should’ve been concerned about my wellbeing and everybody was just telling me that I looked good. And I didn’t even look good because I looked like a damn zombie with these black circles under my eyes. And people just didn’t even see that, all they saw was that I had gotten smaller. 

And so, all of those things just kind of came together and I tried my hand at this little web site but I didn’t really know what I was doing. And I was in this online weight loss group that I had really bonded with a lot of the women, but as my perspective shifted from losing weight to Health at Every Size, I couldn't stay in the group because people just thought I was some rabble rouser who was trying to ruin their weight loss goals. 

And so, I went through a major life shift in my early thirties. I left a long term relationship, I started a new job that was really important to me, I moved to a different part of town. And part of what happened is, I started going out to clubs. And I had heard about plus-size specific dance parties, but I had never been to one. I hadn’t really been going to clubs that long. But the first time I went to one, it was really amazing to just look around this room and see all these fat people who were just like, “We’re here to have a good time together.” 

The clubs in the Bay were, in my experience, were not particularly welcoming to women of color. They were more welcoming to Black men, but not particularly welcoming to women of color. So, in 2008 I started my own plus size dance club in Oakland, California. And that’s what made me sort of a public figure around size acceptance. And then I had to live up to it, right? So like, I started with—this is, like, the longest answer ever to your question. (laughs) But I started with a mission and value statement, which to my knowledge, no other night club in the world has. There were all these BBW clubs, big beautiful women clubs, all around the country. Dance parties, and you know, sometimes bashes—which, bashes are like, party conferences kind of. And to my knowledge, nobody then or to this day had a mission and value statement. And I wanted it to be really clear. I was a diversity educator by day working in a high school, working in community. I wanted to be very clear that this is about community, you know. Like, come party, dance, drink, find somebody to fuck, whatever you do (laughs), but also the underlying part of this is really for us to be supporting each other as people who are not welcome in some other places. And so I had these, like, bullet points of my mission and value statement that were about, you know, “We will try to have the hottest party in the Bay on Friday night, but the rest of the week we’ll be supporting size acceptance things that are happening in other ways. We wanna be LGBTQ friendly. We wanna be fat-positive but not thin-negative.” I just had all these, like, principles around it that I was trying to imbue this night life experience for people who really just wanna come shake their ass and I would be like, “But also, follow me on Facebook so I can tell you about this NAAFA thing!” And it was through that experience, I was really trying to have a place, a club where people were fashionable. I thought that, you know, even though fashion options for fat people are sometimes limited, especially for larger fat people, then when you could find really great clothes or you made great clothes or you were creative enough to put together these great outfits, then you didn’t have anywhere to wear them because you weren’t welcome anywhere. So, I wanted to be a little fashion forward as a club. And that led me to being invited to produce the fashion show at the NAAFA Conference. And that’s how I first got—so after all those years after having first heard about NAAFA from that woman at my college, I had, you know, a couple of like, contact points with NAAFA through the bashes and big parties and stuff. But that’s when I really got involved with NAAFA. I did two fashion shows for NAAFA and then I was invited to join the Board, and I’ve been on the Board for five years. And then in January of 2021 I will take over as the Board Chair. So, that’s the broad strokes of the story. I’m sure there are, like, other little anecdotes and stuff that I could tell too. But that’s the broad strokes. 

BREE: Yeah, of course. Just, side note, this is exactly the kind of long answers I’m hoping to get. That’s the point, is I wanna get people’s stories, right? It’s fun to have a dialogue but it’s also just fun to hear people just talk about what they care about and just what the deal is, so I appreciate you giving it all up. 

My brain sometimes works faster than my mouth (laughs), so I’m just like, shooting off all these things that I wanna say and then my mouth can barely say a letter. 

TIGRESS: That’s all right, regroup for a second and I’ll eat some of my bagel. (Bree laughs)

BREE: Just a quick question. What was the name of your dance party? 

TIGRESS: My organization was called Full Figure Entertainment. Most people in the community just refer to it as FFE. The party was called Full Figure Friday. It was almost always on Friday. I did an occasional party on other nights, but usually Fridays. 

BREE: I feel like I’ll have more questions about dance, but I wanna ask my third and forth baseline questions first. So, this next one kind of touches on some things you’ve mentioned, like you’ve mentioned, like, the use of clothing, making your own clothes and stuff. You mentioned dance, and those can still totally be answers to this question. But, in kind of like, a like, if we were to, like, list it, and I think you might already know, I’ve talked about listing all these ideas and strategies, but the question is: What are some specific resources or strategies that you’ve used in the past or currently use to empower yourself in your body?

TIGRESS: Hm… Sorry, I took a slightly bigger bite than I meant to. (laughs)

BREE: Oh, that is totally okay. No worries at all. (laughs)

TIGRESS: The visibility of other fat people I think has been one of the most important things for me. You know, using the internet that way to find and to be visually reminded of fat people who are, you know, who are happy, or who are unapologetic. I’m gonna say unapologetic. That’s the main thing, right? Like, if you’re happy, great. But I know a bunch of like, depressed ass fat people who are still like, “Fuck you, universe, I’m fat and I don’t have to change that, that’s not why I’m depressed. Or the stigma might be part of why I’m depressed but it’s not the fat.” I love to see people who are fat and happy and fat and thriving. That’s great. But even folks who are fat and struggling, but they’re unapologetic about their fat body because it’s not what’s causing the struggle. Because they’re not in battle with their fat body or with other people’s perceptions of their fat body. It’s really empowering to me. 

I think that… I am better at, in many ways, I know this is true for many of us—I’m better at doing it for other people sometimes than I am at doing it for myself. So, when I took on that role as the nightclub owner, but also like, the party hostess and also the, like, well if nobody’s dancing I guess I will dance so that people will see somebody dancing. I’m better about, when I have sort of an assignment to do it in somebody else’s name. So, one of the things that I do is, when I am feeling most bad about my body, I'm more likely to put myself out there as an example for other people. So cultivating my own, like, Instagram presence or, you know, my Facebook page, or like, my “I of the Tigress” (@iofthetigress) identity, which is where I, on social media, articulate stuff as an individual activist. That’s actually been one of the strategies for me. It’s a little bit of a “fake it until you can make it” strategy, but it’s not exactly faking it because it is the way that I will embody this is by embodying it. Right? The way that I will become the reality of fat acceptance is by putting myself out there to be the reality of fat acceptance. And then it’s like an affirmation cycle, right? Like, I affirm myself and I affirm your right to be in the body that you’re in, and then when you say back to me, “Hell yeah! We get to be in these bodies!” Then it’s like this mutual energy. I think about it like, there’s this ropes course activity that I used to go with my students to. And they do this exercise that’s a little bit hard to explain in words but, basically, you’re up high in the tree and each of you is on a cable, and you’re leaning in towards each other. And the way you stabilize yourself to not fall through those two cables is by leaning on each other. So you have to give each other support or else there’s too much support in one way and too much in the other way and you just fall. And the cables separate further and further as you, like, walk down them. So you have to lean even more and lean even more. And it kind of works the same way for me. The more I have sort of an ongoing engagement with other fat people who are committed to a politic around fat, a politic of, like I said, an unapologetic mindset, a willingness to look at systemic issues and think about systemic and societal issues instead of just internalizing everything. The more I’m around people who do that, then I do it, then they do it back for me, then I do it for them and then they do it back for me. 

Besides that, I also, you know, like, actively follow and actively seek out resources from and for fat people who want to live like that, even if they’re on a journey of getting there. I actually… the weight loss culture has made me hate the word journey. (both laugh) But I do think there is a kind of journey, which I love, which is like, “I have just awakened to the idea that it might not be the end of the world if I’m fat. And now I’m gonna travel along this learning curve until I get to a part where like, I really, really believe that not only might it not be the end of the world, that there are actually some really positive things to this existence,” right? So, along the way for me, media has been important. Representation in media has been important. Part of the reason the internet is so important is because when we don’t get representation in mainstream media, we have more power to create our own representation. I discovered BBW Magazine as a teenager. I didn’t mention that. But it was like, you know those were plus models. That’s not what I look like, but it’s closer to what I look like than these teen magazines I was reading two years ago. So media representation has been important to me, and seeking that out, and books. I read Laura Fraser’s Losing It when I was in my early twenties, which is a critical examination of the diet industry. So, even though it wasn’t explicitly a fat-positive book, just like, taking apart this industry that everybody just accepts wholesale as, like, valid, and applying critical thinking skills to that was really important to me. 

And then, like I said before, when I discovered the Bay Area’s arts community. In the Bay there are all these fat dancers of a million different kinds. You know, there are fat belly dancers, there are fat modern dancers, jazz dancers, ballet dancers. And Big Moves, which is one of the sort of hubs of Bay Area dance, they have a modern dance company and then they do a big dance show that they invite a lot of guest dancers, and so it has dancers from lots of different genres. And so then, the first time I went to that show it was life changing, and then a few years later I started performing as a guest dancer at that show. And being part of that community and seeing this super diverse, not just diverse representation of bodies, but diverse representation of fat bodies doing lots of different kinds of dance, has been really important and sustaining to me. And just like, being around other people who believe in accessibility of movement. That movement doesn’t have to be sort of like, this competition to rule your body into shaping it into something, but can just be about the joy of movement. And that can be about the joy of movement in whatever kind of movement people’s bodies are able to do. So it’s not only accessible to fat bodies, it’s accessible to different kinds of disabled bodies, different ages of people, and like, all of that. That’s been really important. Those are the main things that I think of. 

In terms of strategies, really, like, seeking out people who have politics around being fat. People who identify as fat activists or... First of all, people who use the word fat. It’s beautiful to see plus-size resources, but I don’t get the same thing from plus-size resources, and I don’t have the same commitment from plus-size resources that they won’t turn weight loss on me, or that they won’t let diet culture overpower them or whatever. I find that less, I have that experience less with people who have a politic around being fat, because then when their bodies change, if their bodies change, they are still able to think about the systemic issues for everybody else. So I often quote Marilyn Wann, I’m paraphrasing her, but she says, “I don’t really care how much you weigh, I care how you talk about weight.” Seeking out resources for people who will talk about weight as matter of fact, as problematic because of stigma and not inherently problematic, as neutral, weight-neutral, like, “Oh, fat is fat, thin is thin, it is what it is,” but without sort of a moral hierarchy. Seeking out those resources, I think, has been the most valuable to me. 

BREE: Of those resources, could you name, like, some of your faves, or who you would point people towards? 

TIGRESS: Well, I’m eternally going to point people towards Sonya Renee Taylor. Because I just think that she is a queen of doing this in multiple areas of body love, not just about fat, and really looking at the systems—I think she calls it the “body terrorism complex”, like the way all of these capitalist systems work together to make you feel like shit about your physical self so that they can make money off that. So, I think Sonya Renee Taylor is, like, stunningly brilliant about—first of all, stunningly brilliant. So when I need visual representation of somebody who’s fabulous in a body that is not conformist. You know, she is dark skinned, she is bald, she is larger than people think is okay. So, if I need that visual affirmation, I can get that from her because she’s, you know, stunning in that way. But also she’s brilliant. She articulates her message in a way that people can get it who don’t get it from other sources. So, that’s one. 

You know, I’m friends with Saucyé West and I’m biased because Saucyé started modeling with my night club, like as a promotional model for my nightclub. But I think she is one of my greatest examples of, like, bulletproof confidence around body stuff. I think there are a lot of people, who, you know, like I said, fake it ‘til you can make it, or like, I’m like, cool most of the time but I still have my moments. But she’s just really consistent about, “this is my message and my message is that I’m fine the way I am and I’m fine the way I am.” So she’s a go-to for me.

Chrystal Bougon who runs Curvy Girl Lingerie in California and now does the Fat Products Review on YouTube and has done multiple kinds of things between those two sort of bookend businesses, is another, like, super consistent, super unapologetic, super willing to be intersectional. 

I think NAAFA has been a good resource for fat people for many years. I’m proud to be a part of that. You know, it’s no secret to people that I have criticisms of NAAFA’s history of lack of intersectionality, and that has made it not the same resource for everybody in the world of fat. That is has been, you know, for most of its years, was its core audience, which were predominantly White, heteronormative, you know, social interactions, and you know, political protests and stuff, but still mostly that demographic. And I think that I’m really excited about this next sort of chapter of NAAFA where we’re working really hard to be inclusive—to not just look inclusive but to be inclusive. And I think that even when NAAFA wasn’t the best social experience for people, they still provided a lot of resources. You know, NAAFA has this extensive set of resource documents. Like, something you can take to your doctor to help them understand not being weight biased in your medical experiences. How you can think about higher education being more accessible for fat people. Think about business being more accessible for fat people. You know, those kinds of things I think are great resources for people, even if they’re not sure if NAAFA is a fit for them. Those resources are still available and free. And also, I’m really excited about the NAAFA Webinar Series. I think it’s a great resource for people and a great way to meet... Anybody that I’ve talked to as the host of the NAAFA Webinar Series is somebody that I have also referred other people to in one setting or another because it’s, you know, it’s a bunch of really smart and passionate and, you know, and I’m gonna say unapologetic again, you know, fat people who are just really out there making the world better for other fat people. Those are the main ones that kind of come to mind for me first. 

You know, I can give some more shout outs to The Fat Boys! (both laugh) The thing about The Fat Boys is, in many ways they’re the buffoons of fatness, right? They were the court jesters of hip hop in a way and they made their own fatness the butt of the joke. And that can be really problematic. There’s some really stereotypical stuff that they reinforce about gluttony and whatever, laziness. But also, this generation of fat activists is much more open to just being like, “Yeah, that’s right, I went to the buffet and ate three plates, it’s none of your business!” Right? And so like, The Fat Boys are like, heroes of that. (laughs) And I think there are a lot of individual activists who are that kind of hero, right? That I’m just, you know, I’m not thinking of everybody’s names, but like, you could go to my Instagram, right, iofthetigress, and just see who I follow and you will find a bunch of people who are like, you know, they don’t have 50,000 followers on Instagram, they have 500 followers on Instagram, but they are an inspiration to me, you know. So I think that part of the reason I’m struggling for names is I could name drop a bunch of people—there are other people I could name drop. But also some of the people that I could name drop, it’s not just that they don’t have that kind of recognition, they don’t want it. They're not trying to be a fat resource to everybody else. They’re just cool ass people that I like who are a resource to me, you know? And I think having that, cultivating that around you, also is really powerful. 

BREE: I actually like, I can’t believe I didn’t, like, even think of that. I love just even suggesting like, if there’s someone who speaks to you, see who they follow. That in and of itself is so genius. Duh! That’s a great example. 

I want to ask about dance. So, I am personally pleased to talk to somebody who’s big in dance because for me, dance is literally something in just the last week that I’ve been like, willing and able to, like, participate in—with the door closed all by myself. And I know that it’s been a powerful experience for me in the past, but the only time I ever was able to do it without like, substances, was at a Fat Kid Dance Party. And it was a big deal for me to even be able to, like, not just dance in a room full of people, but look in the mirror and do it. And that’s even after doing my own whole, like, you know, dealing with fat acceptance and stuff for a while. Dance is still very, I guess a touchy subject or whatever for me, and so personally excited to even be like, hearing more about this. And I guess my first question is, just like, what do you say—I was gonna say to someone, but we can just use me as the example in what I just shared—what is your advice to someone who is like, maybe has personal trauma or whatever around movement and like, jiggling? Jiggling specifically was what the... I remember my core memory around this is like, being told jiggling’s bad. And I’m pretty sure that’s my block around dancing. So like, what is your, I guess, feedback or suggestion to someone who is trying to embrace this? 

TIGRESS: I mean, for me it helps to just sort of lean into the idea that I’m terrible and that’s fun. (Bree laughs) I don’t think of myself—you know, sometimes I have grace, sometimes I look cute, whatever. But mostly what I have is temporary fearlessness. It’s not even always fearlessness, it’s temporary fearlessness, you know. I’m not afraid to have my belly on display in this costume on a stage in front of people. I’m not an amazing dancer, I promise you. Like, and I don’t mean this in, like, a self-effacing way, but in an actual practical way—every year I’m one of the worst dancers in that dance show. And I’m also still a favorite of the crowd just because I lean into that sort of like—you know, what I was saying before about sort of like, when you’re not feeling it, and then you put yourself out there to be a representative for other people, it kind of helps you feel it. For me, it’s the rebelliousness of that. It’s the, like, “Oh, voices are telling me that I’m bad? I’ve got something for you, voices!” It’s like that, right? And so, sometimes I look at the pictures and I’m like, aw, why did I do that? And there are so many pictures of me from Big Moves shows where, like, their photographer that they’ve used most frequently in the years that I’ve been in the show, Lisa Ellis, is fantastic. And what that means is, she catches me with fat flying in all different directions. So, you know, I think the more—I had to just, like, kind of desensitize myself to that and then also learn to see the beauty in that, right? 

And again, intentionally seeking out. There’s a hashtag, I think it’s “can’t stop the jiggle” or something like that, that’s like—I actually think it was started by smaller body-positive people who just have a little bit of jiggle. But then, you know, somebody with real belly gets out there like, “Yeah that’s right, you really can’t stop the jiggle.” (laughs) So I think some of that is that rebelliousness, right? And I think it was Rawiya Tariq that said, “It’s not that I’m fearless, it’s that I’m rebellious.” So, that’s how I feel about dancing in front of other people. 

I also think when you’re not putting yourself out there specifically to dance in front of other people as performance, a lot fewer people are watching you dance then you think are. Because they’re so in their own shit or they’re checking out other people. And like, how sad for other people who are watching a bunch of people dance, and the only thing they’re thinking is, “Oh no, you can’t be jiggling like that.” That’s sad for you! Your life sucks! (Both laugh) You know what I mean? Like, if you—I tell people the same thing about swimming. Like, people who are overall more confident and then there’s an extra layer of vulnerability around movement, because of the jiggling, because of being short of breath, because of getting red face, all of those things. And then there is extra vulnerability around things like lingerie or swimsuits because you just don’t have clothing as armor, right? You know, first of all, I am aware that people can see me and I’m not any bigger in a swimming suit than I am in this dress. So first of all, there’s that. But it is more vulnerable, right, because they can see more of what is covered and if they are spending their whole time at the beach worried about your stretch marks, then their day at the beach sucks, right? And most of them are not, right? It would be disingenuous of me to say nobody is ever going to make fun of your fat body if they see you dancing or they see you swimming or whatever because we live in a culture where people do that. And the people who do it are ass holes. Why are you giving your life over to ass holes? Right? So I think, you know, find safe spaces, do it in the safe spaces. If the safe space is your house, do it in your house. Videotape yourself dancing and see how you look to you. You ain’t gotta post that video anywhere, right? See how you look to you and look for the ways that you look fun or that your fluffy body jiggling is fascinating. People who know me know I do this all the time. 

There’s an episode of The Simpsons where Homer is on a treadmill and it’s this like, Mulder and Scully parody kind of characters that are watching him, they’re putting him through all these physical tests, and he’s like, jiggling or whatever, and they’re like, mesmerized by the jiggling. And it’s supposed to be like, how ridiculous it would be for somebody to be so fat that they’re body is still jiggling or whatever. But also like, maybe it should be mesmerizing! It’s kinda fucking awesome that bodies do these things, right? And so, for me, the more I feel, the more I lean into a sense of curiosity and awe about bodies—all bodies—the more, like, instead of looking at somebody who’s skinnier than me and being envious, I’m looking at them and being fascinated that their muscles look like that. Or, you know, instead of looking at somebody who’s fatter than me and being worried about like, “Well I’m this fat now, am I gonna be that fat someday?” I’m trying to look at them and be like, “Well, where is the art in their fat body?” You know? Where is, like... and if I am that fat someday—’cause, you know, I am that fat today, right? I’m a size today that ten years ago I never thought I would be that fat. So, if I look at myself in the mirror I have to, and I don’t want to just be looking at myself in the mirror going, “Wah, my ten years ago body”, which I do sometimes, but also like, that’s really interesting. You know, my friends laugh at me because I say I look like Dr. Zoidberg naked—you know, Dr. Zoidberg from Futurama—and I have the kind of friends who are like, “Why not Zoidberg then? Zoidberg must be hot!” You have to, you know, you can get like that with yourself, when you can laugh at your own ridiculousness for being obsessed about body shame. You know, like, it’s real, and it’s serious, and then if you can get to the point where you can laugh at it sometimes, then the more you do it, the more you do it. 

Now, in terms of specific resources about dance, you mentioned Fat Kid Dance Party, I think that’s a super affirming place to be. And it’s easy to find online, just Google “Fat Kid Dance Party” and you will find Bevin on all the social media, on Pateron, Facebook, all the things. Also people should know Ifasina from Get Embodied Movement. They do a dance class that centers Black, fat, and/or disabled bodies. It is welcoming to everybody, it just, the sort of, the aesthetic and the framework is built with those experiences centered in it. And then there’s line dance and afro beat dance, and you know, a variety of other stuff with accommodations for lots of different bodies. So, those are my two favorite places. And then of course I mentioned Big Moves and if you're in the Bay Area and the world is open (both laugh), if the world is open, Big Moves actually does open rehearsals where people from the public can come and dance with them. So, you know, I like those three resources, but there are fat dancers all over the country. There especially are fat burlesque dancers all over the country. And they’re offering more classes than you think and there are more people jiggling online then you realize there are. If you start looking for the belly hashtag, look for the unapologetically fat hashtags. Every body can move (#everybodycanmove), Meghan from Shapes and Shades Dance Company, which is another—well was started in the Bay and is now in Southern California—it’s a mixed bodies dance company that’s run by a supersize woman. I think she identifies as supersize. Anyway, she says, “Every weight can 5, 6, 7, 8.” Pretty Big Movement is great to watch. The, is it, Carolina Honeybees? One of the Black colleges has a group of—what do you call the people that do the batons? Not marionettes… majorettes? (laughs) I think they’re majorettes. They have a dance troupe. I think they might also do batons, called the Honeybees, they’re a lot of fun to watch. You know, professional dance troupes are sometimes a little less jiggly because they will do stuff, like, to be more mainstream and to get more, you know, more views from people who are less radical about fat acceptance. They will do more things like Spanx and support hose and things like that. Dancers do those things partly in support of their physical bodies, but some dance troupes do those things in support of not jiggling as much. But there’s only so much you’re gonna control the jiggle if you have two hundred pound dancers. So, look at a bunch of other jiggly people. 

BREE: You named a lot of stuff so I’m excited to transcribe and pick ‘em all out. Thank you so much. 

I’m going to ask, I think, the last question. So, I had this new idea literally as of yesterday to try and, like, connect each interviewer by asking the previous one to ask a question for the next interview person. So, I don’t even know who it’s gonna be, but if you could ask an interview question, you know, within this scope, what would you like to ask the next person? 

TIGRESS: I would like to ask the next person what their advice is for dealing with disappointment when somebody that they have looked up to as a body-positive or fat-positive role model begins to engage in diet culture in a way that’s disappointing? How do you manage that disappointment? 

You know I’m talking about Lizzo, right now? I’m not only talking about Lizzo—it happens all the time, right? And I remember asking Jennifer Weiner this. Jennifer Weiner wrote this book in the early 2000s, I think, called Good in Bed. And it was like, a chick lit book but it was a bestseller and it had a plus-size heroine who broke up with her boyfriend because he wrote an article about loving a plus-size woman and she was embarrassed by it. And hilarity ensues as she goes on this mission to find herself or whatever. And it’s, you know, it’s a little bit diet culture, like, she’s trying to lose weight and she has to learn, you know, how to love herself whether she does or not and all this stuff. But anyway, I saw the author at a book signing at a local bookstore, and Star Jones, who was on The View at the time I think, who had been one of the most outspoken, “I’m fat, I don’t have to apologize for that,” you know, “I am who I am,” had lost a bunch of weight. And at the time, she was really one of the only fat celebrities in the public eye at that moment. And she lost a bunch of weight, and I don’t even remember her talking about how she lost the weight or whatever, but it was just like, man, we had this one, ONE representation, and now we have zero. So, that was 20-ish years ago or whatever. Now we have way more representations than one, but we still have way fewer representations than what we need, because nothing represents the breadth of fat experience, right? You have one character on This is Us, you have some Black female comedians, and you have Lizzo, you know. If one person did something that felt like selling out or felt like turning their back on their core fans or whatever, and you still had thirty other fat celebrities, that wouldn’t have the emotional impact on people that it has when you only have a handful or when you literally only have one. And I don’t remember her answer, so I asked this celebrity author like, what’s your take on this? ‘Cause like, I get it, people get to do what they want with their bodies, and also there’s a community impact on that. I don’t even remember her answer because it was just this sort of like, nebulous sort of like, “Well, yeah, it’s tough because…” And that’s, you know, that’s about the best I can do most of the time too. So I’m curious to hear if somebody else has a better answer for it. 

BREE: Yeah, you caught me because I was gonna be like, I know we’re asking the next person, but what are your thoughts? (both laugh) 

TIGRESS: I can leave the question to the next person too if you want not my thoughts, or you can just not use my thoughts. But you know, if you want that question to be like…

BREE: No, just because you answer it doesn’t mean somebody else can’t answer it. I would love to hear your thoughts. 

TIGRESS: I mean, by the time you have your next interview, there will probably be, you know, twenty more think pieces about Lizzo and whatever. And then of course with Lizzo there’s the extra complication that, you know, Lizzo had additional scrutiny because, as much as we think that, or as much as mainstream fat community likes to articulate the idea that life is easier for fat Black women because we’re not as hard, because Black community’s not as hard on fat people as mainstream community. First of all, that was never true at every level. Second of all, big cultural shifts have really impacted that in Black community. And including the attention of diet industry who now sees Black community as a resource for making money. But also, because it was never fully true and because Black bodies are commodified differently than other bodies, Lizzo always had extra attention on her that was extra judgement, extra pressure, extra everything. That Adele, for example, didn’t have in the same way, at the same level, you know? And so, it’s super complicated, right? It’s just super complicated all the time. And it’s complicated when it happens in your own life too. It’s not just that you see celebrities who used to talk the talk and then change their mind because, they—I don’t even want to say that they give in to diet culture, because with everybody the story is different. But for whatever reason, they lose weight or they start talking differently about weight, you know, I guess that’s actually just as important of a question, right? Not just how do you handle that when it happens in the media with some celebrity you don’t even know, but what about when it is the activist that you really looked up to? Or what about when it is the other person who was in the dance troupe with you? You know? Like, then what? Because then it’s not just sort of an academic discussion about autonomy and celebrity life and whatever, it’s actually you in your everyday life, you know, dealing with whatever feelings come up around other people’s bodies. And there’s this knee jerk reaction of like, well it’s not your body so don’t worry about it. And that’s just an incomplete answer. The sort of, it’s their body so it’s none of your business, is an incomplete answer. Because other people’s bodies are our business because perceptions of other people’s bodies impact our lives, sometimes just in emotional ways and sometimes in very real practical ways. You know, somebody else’s weight loss can trigger a bunch of people telling you you need to lose weight. That’s an actual real world reaction, that’s not just like, “I feel bad or I feel different,” right? And so, negotiating that space between people’s bodily autonomy and the reality that people’s choices about their bodies are woven into the experience that other people have of their body. The balancing act is really difficult. So that’s what I want the next brilliant fat person to solve in their interview with you. Solve it! (Bree laughs) Solve. It.  

BREE: I’m sure they will. We’re setting them up for pure success. 

TIGRESS: I’m like, talk to Caleb Luna. If anyone can solve it, Caleb can solve it. Caleb is one of my favorite fat academics if you don’t know Caleb already. 

BREE: I don’t think I do. 

TIGRESS: They are fantastic, and I’m pretty sure that on most things, they are literally just Caleb Luna. 

BREE: Cool. I guess that’s it. I literally feel like I could probably just talk to you all afternoon. This was like, the best first interview I probably could’ve had, so thank you so much for participating and like, fully participating, and like, just, yeah, sharing and… (deep sigh) I’m very grateful. Usually I get really nervous for shit like this but I was not nervous at all today. I, like, was chill as hell listening to Nicole Byer’s podcast on binge, made soup, and then came to talk to you and like, it’s super chill and sweet, so hopefully this is just like, good vibes for the rest of the project. Good first go. Yeah I guess that’s it. Thank you. I dunno, I wanna say a million different ways of like, gratitude. (laughs) I wish there were more ways to just say, “Gratitude! Gratitude! Gratitude!” (laughs) 

TIGRESS: I know, I get like that too. You don’t have to, I mean, it’s my pleasure, and you’re easy to talk to. I mean, I’m a talker, but also you’re easy to talk to and, you know, you have good open ended questions. With somebody else you might have to ask more questions if they don’t just roll like I do (laughs). But no, I think it’s a great vibe, Bree, and you’re off to a great start. And if you review and you’re like, “Oh, I should’ve asked that,” or something else you wanna talk to me about, just let me know and we can talk again or you can send me questions by email or instant messenger or whatever. If there’s something else as you… You’re not just gonna transcribe them right? Are you gonna write like, a little article for the blog based on what you heard or you’re just gonna do a straight transcript? Or have you not decided yet?

BREE: I’ve been planning this whole time to kinda just straight transcribe because I don’t really wanna like, fuck with people’s own words. Like, part of it is I’m really interested in like, the way—what other people have to say and I think the way people speak is important too. So I’m kind of interested in leaving it as is. I thought about maybe writing some sort of intro for them so there’s a little bit. I don’t know what that intro even looks like. Maybe it’ll be about my experience in the interview, I don’t know. But there will probably be something like that. But yeah, I think I’ll keep it pretty… pretty on point. And then likely, I think also at the end, like, whatever like, specific tips or resources, names, stuff like that, will probably get pulled out so that’ll be like, an easy-to-access, like, list of resources and stuff at the end. That’ll probably be something else I do. But yeah, I’ma just start typing I guess! 

* * *

The FATT List!

All items are listed in alphabetical order.

Ideas and strategies

• Curate your social media

  • Cultivate your own online presence.

    • Tigress explains, “Part of the reason the internet is so important is because when we don’t get representation in mainstream media, we have more power to create our own representation.”

  • Follow unapologetic fat people.

    • Tip from Tigress: Go to the pages of people you like and see who they follow.

  • Seek content through fat-positive hashtags like #cantstopthejiggle and #everybodycanmove.

• Dance 

  • Find safe spaces to dance, like plus-size/fat-specific dance parties or your house!

  • Take videos of yourself dancing so you can see how you look to you. 

  • Look at pictures of yourself dancing to desensitize yourself or re-condition yourself to be okay with seeing yourself jiggle.

• Fat visibility 

  • Surround yourself with visual reminders of unapologetic fatness. 

  • Practice your own fat visibility for others. There’s a cyclical effect that will inevitably come back to help yourself too.

    • Tigress explains, “The way that I will become the reality of acceptance is by putting myself out there to be the reality of that acceptance.”

  • Seek out people who have politics around being fat, especially fat activists and people who use the word “fat.” 

• Find the humor in body shame.

  • Tigress explains, “...when you can laugh at your own ridiculousness for being obsessed about body shame. You know, like, it’s real, and it’s serious, and then if you can get to the point where you can laugh at it sometimes, then the more you do it, the more you do it.”

• Make your own clothes. 

• Reclaim and use the word “fat”. 

Organizations and activists

• Alabama State University Honeybeez (dance troupe, @asuhoneybeez) 

• Bevin & Fat Kid Dance Party (dance aerobics class; fatkiddanceparty.com, @fatkiddanceparty)

• Big Moves (Bay Area dance company; bigmoves.org)

• Caleb Luna (scholar and performer; caleb-luna.com, @chairbreaker) 

• Chrystal Bougon & Curvy Girl Lingerie (curvygirlinc.com)

• Health at Every Size (haescommunity.com, lindobacon.com/health-at-every-size-book)

• Ifasina & Get Embodied Movement (soul dance class; facebook group, @thahoodalkemist, @get.embodied)

• Marilyn Wann (speaker and author; marilynwann.com)

• NAAFA (naafa.org) 

  • Free NAAFA Resources 

    • English brochures

    • Spanish brochures

    • Fact sheets

• Pretty Big Movement (dance company; prettybigmovement.com, @prettybigmovement)

• Rawiya Tariq (witch and writer; mammyisdead.com, @mammyisdead)

• Saucyé West (model; saucyewestplusmodel.com, @saucyewest)

• Shapes and Shades Dance Company (@shapesandshadesdance)

• Sonya Renee Taylor (poet, activist, and author; sonyareneetaylor.com, @sonyareneetaylor) 

• Tigress Osborn (@iofthetigress)

Media

• BBW Magazine (bbwmagazine.com)

• Chrystal Bougon’s Fat Product Review (web series; youtube.com/FatProductReview)

• The Fat Boys (80s hip hop trio; videos on Google) 

• Fat! So? By Marilyn Wann (book; fatso.com)

• Losing it: False Hopes and Fat Profits in the Diet Industry by Laura Jane Fraser (book; laurafraser.com/books/losing-it)

• NAAFA Webinar Series (web series; naafa.org/webinars) 

• Nicole Byer (comedian and actor; nicolebyerwastaken.com, @nicolebyer)

  • Why Won’t You Date Me & Best Friends (podcasts)

• Queery (LGBT2QIA+ podcast; earwolf.com/show/queery)

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